What is Christian Zionism? Is it, as figures like Tucker Carlson claim, a relatively recent development in America’s cultural history, or does a general support for the Jewish state have a longer history in America? The answer partly depends on how “Christian Zionism” is defined, but in this conversation, Sam Goldman explains to host James Patterson why support for Jewish political aspirations is part of a long tradition of Christian philosemitism that reaches back even to America’s colonial period.
Related Links
“Tucker Carlson Is Wrong About Christian Zionism,” Compact, Samuel Goldman
God’s Country by Samuel Goldman
Tri-Faith America by Kevin Schultz
Transcript
James Patterson (00:06):
Welcome to the Law & Liberty Podcast. I’m your host, James Patterson. Law & Liberty is an online magazine featuring serious commentary on law, policy, books, and culture, and formed by a commitment to a society of free and responsible people living under the rule of law. Law & Liberty and this podcast are published by Liberty Fund.
Hello and welcome to the Law & Liberty Podcast. My name is James Patterson, contributing editor to Law & Liberty and associate professor of public affairs at the Institute of American Civics at the University of Tennessee. With me, again, is my friend, Dr. Samuel Goldman. He is associate professor of humanities at the Hamilton School for Classical and Civic Education at the University of Florida. And today we’re going to be talking about both a newly-in-paperback book of his called God’s Country: Christian Zionism in America. As well as an article he wrote once again for Compact, “Tucker Carlson is Wrong about Christian Zionism.” And this has all been inspired by some of the contretemps of the moment over some of these issues. So we’ll get into those, but also some of the intellectual background that people may not know. Dr. Goldman, welcome to the Law & Liberty Podcast.
Sam Goldman (01:37):
Always a pleasure to speak, Dr. Patterson.
James Patterson (01:42):
I always feel a little guilty about being informal on these podcasts, so I’m going by honorifics at least at first. Now, before we started recording, we were just talking about how many people have offered commentary on Tucker Carlson interviewing Nick Fuentes. And your comment was never before in your life have you felt so middle aged. I feel the same way! So we are not going to talk about the ins and outs of all that business. We’re going to be talking about what was motivating them to talk, and that’s this idea of Christian nationalism. I mean Christian Zionism, excuse me, not Christian nationalism. Totally different show. So what is Christian Zionism and what does Tucker Carlson get wrong about it?
Sam Goldman (02:28):
So Christian Zionism is one of these annoying terms that can be defined in different ways. And one of the frustrating things about the discussion that I entered with my Compact piece and carried on in social media and elsewhere is that people sort of mean different things by “Christian Zionism” and unless you can settle on one definition, it’s hard to have a productive discussion. So I’ll give you two definitions. One is the one that I think Carlson had in mind, which is common and which I think is wrong or at least only partial. And then I’ll give you my correct definition, which is the one that I advance in my book. So one way of understanding Christian Zionism is as the affection of modern Christians, mostly evangelical Protestants, for the current state of Israel, and usually that is associated with a set of eschatological beliefs that involve the return of the Jews to the Biblical Promised Land, the establishment of a state there, increasing turmoil in the region and the world,
(03:49):
and finally a sort of apocalyptic narrative in which Christ returns to rule in person. That’s a definition that has been common for at least 40 years, and I think it’s probably the one that Carlson has in mind, although it’s not clear that everyone whom he mentioned, George W. Bush among others, is a Christian Zionist in that sense. But my contention in the article and the book is that that’s really just too narrow. I would say that Christian Zionism should be defined as something like the idea that God has a continuing concern for the people and land of Israel, that that concern is reflected perhaps imperfectly or mysteriously in the modern Zionist movement and the state of Israel, and because Christians profess to worship and serve the God of Israel, they have some responsibility for supporting or promoting those goals. That is a much broader definition of what it means to be a Christian Zionist.
(05:09):
And it’s also one that extends back a lot deeper in history. So Carlson in that show and on other episodes has suggested that Christian Zionism can be derived from the nineteenth century Anglo Irish theologian, John Nelson Darby. I think it really goes quite a long way farther back, really back to the Protestant Reformation. And what I suggest in my book is that this idea was brought to what became the United States by the Puritans. It became a recurring feature of American political and religious life. It was never uncontroversial or unanimously accepted; I wouldn’t suggest that for a moment. But it was a popular and fairly normal idea really throughout both the history of the republic and colonial history. So when people like Carlson said as he did in the interview with Fuentes, that this is a brain virus that’s somehow taken over the Republican party in America as a result of Darby or the so-called Scofield Bible, which included notes that were influenced by Darby’s ideas, I just don’t think that’s true. Christian Zionism in a broad sense is an old and powerful feature of American thought. And when we talk about its influence and value, I think we should approach it on those terms.
James Patterson (06:58):
During a now leaked video from the Heritage Foundation meeting over some of the fallout from their involvement with Tucker Carlson, one of the participants said that they regarded Christian Zionism as a heresy and they associated this with being either Catholic or Eastern Orthodox. We’re not going to speculate what they mean by that, but there is a kind of odd proximity of Protestantism to Christian Zionism that you don’t find in Catholicism or Orthodoxy. Why is it that Protestantism is so much friendlier to this way of thinking?
Sam Goldman (07:44):
So Protestantism emerges in part out of the idea that scripture is the ultimate authority for Christians. You know better than I do, as a Catholic, that it’s more complicated than that, and there’s a whole range of arguments, but one of the central ideas in what becomes Protestantism is that if you want to know what God wants, you have to go back to the Bible and you have to read it yourself. Which doesn’t mean that everyone’s interpretation is equally valid; particularly early forms of Protestantism had strong interpretive and theological authorities that were supposed to guide people. But you’re supposed to, you know, you read the book and you see what it says. So what happens if you do that?
James Patterson (08:28):
I have never read the Bible before, Sam,
Sam Goldman (08:31):
Well, I’ve seen on Twitter accusations that this is true of all Catholics. So I leave that for others to judge. So you pick up the Bible and what do you find? Well, first of all, you find that it has these two parts: if you are a Christian an Old and New Testament, or for Jews the Hebrew Bible and the other stuff, and then you have to answer the question of what these things have to do with each other. And one of the innovations of Protestant theologians was to say, well, look, when you read the Old Testament as it was for them, you see that it is replete with references to Israel, to the people and land of Israel. And some of those references they suggested are pre-figurations of the Church. They’re metaphors for the community of believers that would be fulfilled in Christ.
(09:40):
But some of them are references to what was called the seed of Abraham, the descendants of Abraham, and to the Biblical Promised Land. And from this turn to scripture and to the Old Testament, which for them was of equal authority to the New Testament, there developed a sense that God was not finished with the people or land of Israel. And through reading, especially some of the prophecies that occur later in the Hebrew Bible or Old Testament, many Protestants expected that one day in the fullness of time, God would bring together the scattered Jews of the world, would restore them to residence in at least some portion of the Biblical Promised Land, and would set up some kind of political community there. And all of this was vague and argument by way of implication, if not insinuation, but you can see in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries something that looks like a precursor to Zionism emerging not among Jews and not in Eastern and Central Europe, but rather among English speaking Protestants in Britain and then in what would become the United States.
James Patterson (11:16):
So we see this and contemporary scholarship that’s come up, Eric Nelson’s book, The Hebrew Republic. I know we’re selling your book today, Sam.
Sam Goldman (11:27):
People should also buy Nelson’s book.
James Patterson (11:30):
Yeah, God’s Country: Christian Zionism in America of course. And I have this political Hebraism, which is a wonderful compilation. So this is sort of well known in scholarly circles or at least being better established than maybe it was before. And the thing about this political Hebraism is that it was not unfamiliar to the American Founders at the time of the founding of the colonies, or to the framers of the Constitution. So how is it that Christian Zionism makes its way to the US?
Sam Goldman (12:10):
Well, it becomes embedded in the religious traditions that shape the political culture of the founding period. Not equally or to the same degree everywhere, so one sort of current, where it’s especially powerful is the Puritan traditions that then become congregationalism in the eighteenth, late seventeenth and eighteenth century. Presbyterians have a strong tradition of this. It’s especially the religious communities that are influenced by Calvinism that seem to have this affinity. And that then gets picked up by many founders and framers, I think not in a sort of fully committed and explicit way. There are figures who did that; I talk in the book about a guy named Elias Buodinot who served as president of the Continental Congress and was an important aid to Washington, who actually wrote a couple of books making this case. But for some of the more familiar figures, it was sort of in the background.
(13:25):
So I am not an archival scholar. I don’t claim to have found things that other people haven’t found, but to the extent that I have any discoveries, I located a diary entry by John Adams from when he was riding the circuit in Massachusetts in the late 1760s. So in those days, as some listeners may know, the court moved so people could do their legal business and then all the lawyers would follow the court around the colony. So they spent a lot of time hanging out in taverns talking because they were away from home and didn’t have anything else to do. And Adams reports that one night in the tavern, he and his colleagues were talking about the restoration of the Jews. So this was an idea that people were aware of. It was something they heard referred to in the pulpit. It was a subject of sort of lay religious discussion.
(14:32):
And I think that created a climate in which many leading political figures, even if they were not particularly orthodox or even particularly pious, were sympathetic in principle to the idea that Jews were a nation, and that like other nations, it would be good for them to have their own state. So there’s a famous letter that Adams writes many years later to Mordecai Manuel Noah, who is the most prominent Jewish politician in the early republic. And he says to Noah, I really wish to see the Jews again in Judea, a state. And he goes on to say: And yourself at the head of an army of 100,000. And I don’t take that too literally. In part–and people who quote the letter don’t always say this–Noah had been bothering Adams for a blurb for his book, basically. So he’s sort of sending him away with this nice sentiment that he can use for promotional purposes. For Adams–he wouldn’t say anything that he didn’t really believe, either. And there are lots of statements by prominent founders and framers that express this sort of sympathy, again, for something that looks a lot or sounds a lot like Zionism, a century before the emergence of the organized Zionist movement in the late nineteenth century.
James Patterson (16:13):
One of my favorite places to go in the United States is Savannah, Georgia. There’s a synagogue there called Congregation Mickve Israel, I think the oldest or one of the oldest synagogues, 1735 is the founding. And it was Sephardic Jews escaping the Spanish and Portuguese Inquisition. So in a way, when they came to Savannah, they didn’t realize that they were going to be bordering the Spanish to their south, and immediately became very good friends with the Anglicans there, because of this common threat from the Catholic Church. So sometimes the Christian Zionism is complicated and its history…
Sam Goldman (16:58):
And one of the complicating factors is that this is a time when there are very, very few Jews in the United States. Nobody really knows for certain because the census didn’t count in those days, but in 1800 there were almost certainly fewer than 10,000 Jews in the United States. And even that may be high because I can’t remember exactly where that estimate includes. So part of the complication in this story has to do with the relation between this idealization of the national Israel and the encounter with actually existing Jews in the United States or elsewhere.
James Patterson (17:49):
The Scofield Bible that you mentioned earlier is a major inspiration for what eventually becomes known as pre-millennial dispensationalism, and that’s very strongly associated with contemporary Christian Zionism as Tucker Carlson misuses it, as you explained. And what’s really great about your book is how you illustrate that a lot of the early sympathies for Jewish inclusion in the American project, as well as for the Zionist project, was not from fundamentalists, it was from mainline Protestants of the Presbyterian and Episcopalian and Methodist sort of variety. What is it about post-millenarianism, which gets less attention, that drove them to that?
Sam Goldman (18:41):
Well, so maybe we should step back first and talk about the differences in these theories. So the classic way of doing this is saying there are people who are pre-millennial or pre-millenarian and they believe that Christ is going to return in person and then set up the millennial kingdom. And it is said that these people are waiting for a catastrophe. Things are going to get worse before they get better, and then there’ll be this miraculous intervention in history. And that’s an idea that has come to be associated with Christian Zionism, as we said earlier, partly through the influence of people like Darby and Scofield. Against that is so-called post millennialism, post-millenarianism, which is the idea that first human beings will establish the millennial kingdom, which is this, sort of, not exactly utopian but vastly improved condition that the New Testament describes. And then Christ will come back at the end.
(19:55):
And it is sometimes said that people who hold this set of eschatological views are more inclined to campaigns of political and social improvement. They want to make things better. They believe that’s how you build up the Kingdom of God. There is something to that distinction, but I don’t think it is quite as sharp as people sometimes suggest. So right up to roughly the end of the nineteenth century, you can find, and I cite in my book examples of both pre-millennial and post-millennial thinkers who see the establishment of some kind of Jewish political entity in the Biblical Promised Land as part of the progress toward the millennial kingdom. The big division in the first half of the nineteenth century is not so much whether Christ comes before or after the millennium, but whether Christ is going to come in person. And there were plenty of post-millennial theologians who expected a personal and literal return of Christ after the establishment of the millennium.
(21:07):
And they tended to be quite sympathetic to this proto Christian Zionism, or as it’s sometimes called Christian restorationism. That changes in the late nineteenth and early twentieth century as post millennialism becomes associated with what was known as the social gospel. The idea that what God and Christ want Christians to do is go and work on behalf of the poor and suffering and build earthly institutions that will reflect the teachings of charity and mercy and justice that are enjoined upon believers. And that understanding of the religious task becomes a major element in the liberal theology of the twentieth century. Now, let me bring it back to Christian Zionism. It is often suggested, especially for those who have this narrow definition of Christian Zionism and this stylized lineage going back to Scofield and Moody and Darby and others, that you didn’t find support for what is now the organized Zionist movement and eventually the state of Israel among these liberal post-millennial, social gospel type Christians, that it was concentrated in what by the 1920s were called fundamentalists.
(22:45):
But it turns out that that’s actually not true. A number of prominent social gospel figures were at least interested, although in some ways critical of the Zionist movement and the so-called Yishuv, the pre-state Jewish settlements in mandatory Palestine. And in the 1930s and especially during the Second World War, a group of Christian thinkers and activists associated with Reinhold Niebuhr tries to sort of extract that from what they see as the pacifism and the naivete of the social gospel. So by the late 1940s and early 1950s, so the immediate period of state founding, it was more common or at least more prominent to find advocates and defenders of the modern state of Israel among what were then called mainline Protestants and to some extent liberal Catholics, rather than fundamentalists or evangelicals. Once again, this was not universal. This was a source of major dispute in many churches, but those disputes go both ways.
(24:11):
So there were liberal Protestants, especially those associated with the ecumenical movement and the Federal and later World Council of Churches, who were very suspicious of Zionism and in no less a platform than Time Magazine, which was a big deal in those days. They fought that out with people like Niebuhr. But the same was true in fundamentalist and evangelical circles where many people did have this sort of eschatological belief that the establishment of the state of Israel was a step toward the second coming, but they were also very concerned about its socialist character. Remember that the state of Israel was nominally socialist and did not really firmly align with the West and the Cold War until the Korean War. So it took a little while. And also for the evangelical movement associated with Billy Graham that starts to emerge in the late forties and early fifties, there was a lot of concern about the restraints on proselytizing that the state of Israel imposed on Christians and not only on Christians. So you really see advocates of both sides of the question in both, for lack of a better term, liberal and conservative forms of Protestantism. And it’s not until quite a bit later than that, really the 1970s, that these categories start to get ironed out in ways that feel very obvious and familiar now, but again, as I suggest in my book, are a pretty recent development.
James Patterson (25:59):
The shaking out of those two categories is something that people like maybe Tucker Carlson’s age and younger sort of take for granted. They take for granted The Late Great Planet Earth and Left Behind and these kinds of resolutions that, as you say, take a century to resolve. And one of the causes for mainline churches to engage so much on this question was that, and this is something of a generalization, but in many cases, they are more proximate to large Jewish populations that have immigrated to the United States primarily in eastern coast areas. That’s as far as some Jewish immigrants could afford to arrive, right? They got off the boat with nothing, right? They became rag pickers…
Sam Goldman (26:48):
You mean they didn’t show up in Brooklyn and decide it was the greatest place on earth? There’s no reason to move on?
James Patterson (26:56):
Surprisingly, very few matcha latte vendors in Brooklyn at the time. The story of the liberal Protestant engagement with Zionism is often in terms with dealing with Jewish leaders that they became associated with. You even mentioned the ecumenical movement, which is the subject of Kevin Schultz’s book Tri-Faith America. How is it that they’re able to hash out some kind of consensus that eventually becomes known as the Judeo-Christian consensus, especially given that the third party incorporated was the Catholic Church, which as you mentioned, has very different considerations of eschatology and the nature of Israel?
Sam Goldman (27:44):
Yeah. So let me answer the second part first about Catholics and then circle back to your earlier question. So as you say, Catholics have historically a very different understanding of the relation of Israel to the Church, and standard Catholic doctrine very, very generally, certainly before Vatican II, is that the Church is the fulfillment of all the promises to Israel. So when (or I should say, if and when) you read the Old Testament and you see God promising these things directly or through prophets to Israel, they’re really talking about the Church. And this is the idea that the Protestants had challenged back in the sixteenth century. In addition to that theological position, the Catholic Church also claimed authority over the holy places in Jerusalem. It’s not uncontested; to this day you can see representatives of different churches and sects brawling in the streets of the Old City over control of certain shrines or holy places.
James Patterson (29:00):
There’s a ladder, right? Is it the church of Holy Sepulcher that no one moves because…
Sam Goldman (29:05):
Yeah, something like that.
James Patterson (29:07):
Nobody wants to say it’s their ladder or who can move it. As you say, you’ll have Franciscans in the street beating Greek Orthodox nuns, and nobody wants that.
Sam Goldman (29:19):
And the Catholic Church up to the establishment of the state of Israel had really hoped that Jerusalem would be declared an international city in which the Church would have religious custody over the holy places. So they did not like the outcome, the establishment of state of Israel and partition. Remember, people forget now, that most of Jerusalem, including almost all of the significant religious locations, were under Jordanian control, not Israeli control. But that starts to change in the late forties and early fifties for a couple of reasons. And one of them, which I think is more sort of global, is that a major political concern, the major political concern of the Catholic Church at that point was anti-communism. And it became clear, not immediately, but by say 10 years after the foundation of the state of Israel, that it was going to be part of the anti-Communist Alliance.
(30:30):
And that went some way in reconciling certainly high level Catholic officials, people who were thinking about geopolitics to the state of Israel in a way they weren’t at the time of its establishment. They were much more nervous about what it was going to turn out to be. The other cause, which is more specific to the United States, is the emergence of much stronger Catholic Jewish interfaith relations that really comes out of the American immigrant urban experience. The Jews and the Italians and the Irish all live together in these cities, and they have a long and complicated history of rivalry and tension. But in the twentieth century, there are a number of members of the Catholic clergy, Cardinal Cushing in Boston is probably the leading one, who are really trying to mend those relations. And one of the ways that they do that is through support, at least nominally for Israel and Zionism, which is a cause that’s very important to many American Jews.
(31:50):
And it provides a way for Catholics to say, look, we are on your side. That then turns into a theological argument. Some of these figures end up at the Second Vatican Council where the Church is reevaluating its stance on Jews and by the implication on Israel. And these more–here, I’m using the term very, very loosely, so everyone forgive me if you’re offended–“liberal” in a very broad sense, sentiments that come out of twentieth century America that are then sort of reflected back into Church doctrine. So it’s not a full rapprochement. I don’t think there’s been a full rapprochement to this day. This is more your field than mine. But by Vatican II, the Catholic Church, and many Catholics especially in the American hierarchy, see Israel as perfectly compatible with their religious and social and political commitments, rather than being at odds with it. Now, to return to your previous question, this is all very long-winded. This is the problem when you interview professors.
James Patterson (33:13):
No, but the thing is, I have as a pet peeve when the interviewer has on a person to listen to them. So I’ve always very self-consciously trying to make sure that when people come on the podcast that they get to talk about their stuff rather than hearing me. I’ve already felt like I’ve said too much.
Sam Goldman (33:34):
So you mentioned the idea of Tri-Faith or Judeo-Christian America or Judeo-Christian civilization. This is in my view, a much older idea. So having done this annoying thing with Christian Zionism and said, no, it’s older, it’s more complicated, it’s more deeply rooted, I have in mind maybe to write a book about Judeo-Christian civilization and do sort of the same thing. But certainly it’s an idea that becomes prominent in the 1930s as a way of describing a broad front. I mean, it’s like the religious popular front, all the churches, all the groups united together first against Nazism and later against communism. And this gets picked up in America in a particularly powerful way because it intersects with the American tradition of religious liberty and civic equality. So before World War II, and especially before World War I, it was completely normal to think of America, not just as a Christian nation, but as a Protestant nation, as a specifically Protestant nation that might tolerate non Protestants, but as having Protestantism at its core. During and after World War II, that kind of rhetoric doesn’t disappear, but it is marginalized. And instead, political figures and religious leaders start talking in very broad terms about Tri-Faith or Judeo-Christian America to create as broad a civic identity as possible, and that makes it much, much easier to think of Zionism and then the state of Israel as compatible with American aspirations and interests rather than outside or contrary to them.
James Patterson (35:46):
Yeah, when it comes to the Catholic Jewish story there, one of my favorites, I think I got this right, it’s from Machine Made, which is a book from 2014 by Terry Galway. I may be wrong about this, but it was a Tammany Hall thing where Irish Catholics during prohibition wanted to get alcohol. Now, there was no way to do that legally except through a religious dispensation, and they didn’t want to imitate being Catholic priests because they’re good Irish Catholics. So in Tammany, there are lots of Jews that have moved there recently, and the Jews don’t care if the Irish Catholics pretend to be rabbis because no one’s going to be fooled by Rabbi Ohanahan. And so they make them rabbis so they can get alcohol. They end up with Manischewitz. I’m not sure if it’s worth it!
Sam Goldman (36:39):
Well, this is also, by the way, the period when Italian food becomes America’s favorite foreign cuisine. Previously it had been German food, but after World War I, German things are very unpopular, but also at Italian restaurants, they would make wine in the basement, and suddenly Americans discovered a new affection for pasta that they hadn’t had before.
James Patterson (37:06):
Amazing, amazing how that works. The other story about this is that there was this very old continental European tradition of antisemitism, and it’s kind of represented in Charles Coughlin. He’s a radio priest in the thirties, and he’s sort of rivaled by Fulton Sheen, who’s very Philosemitic, refers to Jews as our elder brothers in faith. And the American bishops are so contemptuous of Coughlin, but they can’t get him off the air for reasons that are sort of beyond the scope of this. And then he finally says that Pearl Harbor was a Jewish conspiracy, which is hilarious to think of Emperor Hirohito on the phone with, I don’t know, the Elders of Zion. And because of that, he’s pulled off the air for seditious speech. So it is a close run thing at a certain point in mass media, but that gets us almost to the present now, where we start to see, as I mentioned already, The late Great Planet Earth and Jerry Falwell. That’s when we start to see the Christian Zionism that I think Tucker’s thinking about, and that this kid at the Heritage Foundation’s thinking about. What makes it kind of distinct from the stuff we’ve already described?
Sam Goldman (38:24):
Well, I would say the turning point is probably 1967, or the Six Day War, however you choose to describe it. And that’s where this sort of disaggregation of liberal and conservative, biblical and theological, to some extent, Protestant and Catholic tendencies begin, and you start getting something that looks much more like the kind of Christian Zionism that Carlson probably has in mind. So what happens in 1967? Well, Israel wins this extraordinary victory in a short time. OK, but what does it win? It wins control once again of the Old City, which had not been under Israeli authority previously. So there seems to be a moment in which God has reentered history and biblical prophecies are occurring. Once again, you go back to your Bible, it talks about the return to Jerusalem. Well, here are the Jews returning to Jerusalem.
(39:50):
And you can see it happening on TV. So I think that for a lot of Protestants, particularly in so-called evangelical and fundamentalist communities that sort of reawakened their sense that something was happening, that God was acting in history and big things were coming in the Holy Land. It didn’t create it. They sort of believed that in a general sense before. But again, here it was on TV in this remarkably dramatic context. But also, what else is happening in the world in 1967? It’s the peak or the nadir, if you prefer, of the Vietnam War. And what’s happening in Vietnam is that the great superpower is being fought to a stalemate, or seems to be fought to a stalemate, by these peasants in flip flops. So the juxtaposition is really powerful. America is Gulliver tied down by Lilliputians. It’s supposed to have all of this power but can’t do anything.
(41:00):
Meanwhile, Israel is David fighting Goliath (which is the rhetoric that you find everywhere in descriptions of this period) and it wins. So that suggests to some American Christians that, again, it’s not just that God is reentering history, but there’s a contrast between the biblically chosen nation, which is winning wars and getting things done, and an America that seems to be falling away from righteousness. So we’re being beaten in Vietnam, and you turn on the TV and there are hippies and kids are smoking dope. In Israel, as it seems, you have a disciplined, religious, sober people achieving their goal. So that’s really appealing to conservative Protestants. At the same time, some of the things that had once been appealing about Israel to liberal Protestants begin to recede. So it had been David, this plucky outsider, but now it’s won its war. Now it’s indisputably powerful. It starts to get harder to see it as the underdog there.
(42:22):
The Israelis are fighting with Western weaponry, mostly French, by the way. The United States had not yet become a major military supplier to Israel, but they’re fighting with Western weapons, and against whom? Against, as they see it, oppressed brown people who are parallel to the Vietnamese or the other anti-colonial movements of the world being suppressed by imperialism. Finally, the United States is beginning, if not a process of secularization exactly then a period of religious polarization. Before the late sixties, early seventies, knowing how religiously observant someone was didn’t really tell you very much about their politics. They could be liberals by the standards of the day or conservatives. They could be Republicans or Democrats. A sorting process is beginning where liberals, progressives and Democrats are more likely to be secular, and conservatives and Republicans are more likely to be religious. So what had been this sort of religious left even of Niebuhr’s period starts getting eroded and becoming more left and less religious in ways that are contrary to an enthusiasm for Israel.
(43:53):
So this doesn’t happen overnight. Really, into the 1970s, liberal Protestants like Franklin Littell, who is a Methodist, are sort of the face of Christian support for Israel in the United States. But by the late seventies and early eighties, roughly the Reagan in era, that’s changed. And it is people like Jerry Falwell, like Oral Roberts, later like Pat Robertson, who are much more consistently and explicitly conservative in their politics, are much more as they see it–obviously this is questionable, but as they see it–literalists in their reading of scripture, and who are also much more uncritical in their attitude toward Israel, which sometimes seems to interest them (this is less true of Falwell, I think, in that group) less as a real place with real people who have real interests in peace and security and normal life, and more as the aircraft carrier where Jesus is going to land. And as you’ve said and as we began the conversation, I think that is really what people have in mind now when they talk about Christian Zionism. And it’s understandable to some degree because that has been the public face of Christian Zionism now for at least 40 years.
James Patterson (45:31):
Yeah, the aircraft carrier where Jesus is going to land, that’s going to stay with me. With a Mission Accomplished banner, and gets out in a fighter jet. That is too great. The issue that I wanted to raise just as at the end here, is that Tucker Carlson tries to represent a particular kind of new version of the GOP that’s pivoting away from internationalism and what he regards as uncritical support for things like Israel or for Ukraine for that matter. But what’s weird is that what gave rise to this idea was that Donald Trump was going to be the figure that would initiate this break. And has there been a more pro-Israel president? Maybe Harry Truman? So I don’t understand why they think this is the moment to do that.
Sam Goldman (46:19):
Well, I can’t speculate. I don’t know what people imagine, but my impression is that there’s actually a lot of frustration with Trump for failing to execute this, if not break with Israel, sort of distancing from Israel. I think it is not surprising that Trump has failed to do this. His disposition in foreign policy is not non-interventionist or toward restraint. I think it’s basically what Walter Mead, who wrote a very good book about US-Israel relations calls “Jacksonian.” The Jacksonian disposition, as Mead describes it, has always had an affinity for Israel because these are tough guys defending themselves. They don’t take prisoners. They’re not hemmed in by lawyers and moral scruples. Whether or not this is true, I think that’s a big part of the appeal of Israel to a lot of Americans. And we should say as we’re having this conversation, according to polls, Israel and Jews remain pretty popular among the public at large. There has been some change in attitudes towards Israel, especially among younger Americans. But on the whole, it’s still doing reasonably well. And I think even apart from these religious considerations that Jacksonian quality is part of the reason. So Trump, as I think is often the case, is probably better attuned to his actual supporters than the social media political intelligentsia or sub intelligentsia. And at least for the moment, support for Israel is consistent with that.
James Patterson (48:30):
Trump’s not known for being terribly devout, but he’s at least probably been in the milieu for so long. He’s from New York. He grew up at a Protestant church. It’s probably beyond him; a lot of this stuff that’s coming out today just sort of doesn’t register. But I’m imagining now, because I’ve seen them already at events before, Tucker Carlson sort of beseeching Donald Trump at this side of a UFC fight, asking him to reconsider. Because I’ve seen them both together at a UFC fight before. It’s strange days, Sam.
Sam Goldman (49:15):
Every day is interesting.
James Patterson (49:18):
Anyway, thank you so much for coming on the Law & Liberty Podcast, Sam. Your book is God’s Country: Christian Zionism in America. The article at Compact “Tucker Carlson is Wrong about Christian Zionism.” Thank you so much for coming on, Sam.
Sam Goldman:
Thanks James.
James Patterson:
Thanks for listening to this episode of Law & Liberty Podcast. Be sure to subscribe on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts, and visit us online at www.lawliberty.org.